CAPTivated

EP 07 Digital Blackface and AI with Ryan Ken

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In this episode Julius, Sage, and Hanna sit down with Emmy-winning writer, actor, and comedian Ryan Ken to discuss “digital Blackface,” the use of online Black images, expressions, and likenesses for non-Black self-expression or profit. The conversation dives deep into the complex history of Blackface, from its roots in 19th-century minstrelsy to its insidious modern evolution into reaction memes and a dangerous new era of AI deepfakes. Ryan explores how new technologies are being used to "supercharge" centuries-old racist tropes, the political utility of "rage bait" AI, and how power operates through comedy. Ryan also points out the broader philosophical risk of losing human connection in art to artificial intelligence and highlights that critical thinking means having the humility to admit you can be wrong.

Want to hear more from Ryan? Join them and CAPT for the first annual Summit on Information, Technology, and American Democracy in Indianapolis on April 30th. Register here.


Key Takeaways from Ryan:

  1. Be suspicious of video.
  2. Don't believe you're too smart to be tricked. 
  3. Seek out real, human creativity. 


Find out more about Ryan on:

TikTok (@ryan_ken_acts) 

Instagram (@ryan_ken_acts)

Bluesky (@ryankenacts.bsky.social) 

X (@Ryan_Ken_Acts)


Some of the texts we refer to in this episode:


Ryan’s Media Diet

Meat and potatoes :

Outlets: BlueSky, Democracy Now!, Al Jazeera, NPR, PBS


Individuals: 

Karen Attiah – journalist

Erin in the Morning – trans rights reporting

Vinny Thomas

Caitlin Reilly

Jay Jurdin

This podcast is part of CAPT’s efforts to encourage open and diverse intellectual exchange. The ideas presented by individuals on the podcast are their own and do not represent Purdue University, which adheres to a policy of institutional neutrality.

We would love to hear your thoughts on this episode! Send us feedback to captivatedpod@gmail.com

In this episode Julius, Sage, and Hanna sit down with Emmy-winning writer, actor, and comedian Ryan Ken to discuss “digital Blackface,” the use of online Black images, expressions, and likenesses for non-Black self-expression or profit. The conversation dives deep into the complex history of Blackface, from its roots in 19th-century minstrelsy to its insidious modern evolution into reaction memes and a dangerous new era of AI deepfakes. Ryan explores how new technologies are being used to "supercharge" centuries-old racist tropes, the political utility of "rage bait" AI, and how power operates through comedy. Ryan also points out the broader philosophical risk of losing human connection in art to artificial intelligence and highlights that critical thinking means having the humility to admit you can be wrong.

Want to hear more from Ryan? Join them and CAPT for the first annual Summit on Information, Technology, and American Democracy in Indianapolis on April 30th. Register here.

Key Takeaways from Ryan:

  1. Be suspicious of video. We now need to have a default level of suspicion toward video content. Do the extra work of verifying by checking if a person exists on other platforms and looking for visual inconsistencies. Reflect before you engage: ask yourself why something is making you feel the way it does.
  2. Don't believe you're too smart to be tricked. Assuming you're immune to misinformation can be dangerous. Intellectual humility — staying open to being wrong and being willing to sit with new information — is a more effective defense than uncritical confidence.
  3. Seek out real, human creativity. The fundamental appeal of art is that a person is sharing their vision of the world with you. AI will never provide the connection of live performance and art made by human beings. 


Find out more about Ryan on:

TikTok (@ryan_ken_acts) 

Instagram (@ryan_ken_acts)

Bluesky (@ryankenacts.bsky.social) 

X (@Ryan_Ken_Acts)


Some of the texts we refer to in this episode:


Ryan’s Media Diet

Meat and potatoes:  

Outlets: BlueSky, Democracy Now!, Al Jazeera, NPR, PBS


Individuals: 

Karen Attiah – journalist

Erin in the Morning – trans rights reporting

Vinny Thomas

Caitlin Reilly

Jay Jurdin

Lisa Beasley / Corporate Erin

Danielle Pinnock

Nicole Daniels / Nonprofit Boss


Podcasts: Maintenance Phase, Code Switch (NPR), If Books Could Kill, 5-4 Podcast, Eat, Pray, Thot, Couples Therapy, Gender Reveal, Normal Gossip


Junk Food: 90 Day Fiancé, horror kick audiobooks


Transcript:

[00:00:00] Ryan Ken: 

From what I know of blackface, it coincides with or follows the history of slavery. It was a form of entertainment where white and Black performers would often darken their faces to portray stereotypical characters. A lot of it was meant to reaffirm ideas that justified Black people's subjugation. However, it is an early form of American entertainment that has long followed and shaped much of the media that has come after it.

[00:00:43] Julius Freeman: 

Welcome to another episode of CAPTivated, a podcast hosted by the Center for American Political History, Media, and Technology at Purdue University. In each episode, we examine a specific facet of our digital public sphere—how it works and how we got here. We are here to help you sort through the noise. I'm Julius.

[00:01:01] Sage Goodwin:

 I'm Sage.

[00:01:02] Hanna Sistek: 

And I'm Hannah. Our guest for today's episode is Ryan Ken. Ryan is a Black, queer, non-binary comedian, actor, and writer. They are probably best known for their TikTok and Instagram comedy videos.

[00:01:15] Julius Freeman: 

Their work has been recognized by GQ, Vulture, NPR, and The Hollywood Reporter. And listen to this: they've won not one, not two, not even just three, but four Emmys as part of the writing team for Last Week Tonight with John Oliver.

[00:01:29] Sage Goodwin: 

This was a big one for me. Since we started the podcast, I've been wanting to get Ryan on. Apart from just being hilarious, I think their videos provide really sharp social critique and thought-provoking insights into how race, media, and power operate in America. They do what satire is supposed to do: make you laugh and make you think. I've even used Ryan's videos in a class I teach on protest and the press in the postwar U.S. Their video on objectivity and reporting on the Capitol riots is my favorite; we'll link it in the show notes.

[00:01:57] Hanna Sistek: 

We've spoken to a lot of experts on the podcast who study our digital public sphere, but I'm really excited to hear a view from the trenches from someone who actually navigates our digital media landscape in their job. I found that topic really interesting and I was so sad that I couldn't make this recording, but listening to it, I love the point Ryan made about how you can tell a lot about a society based on who they use as a punchline. I totally get it. In any case, this event will be our first annual summit on information technology and American democracy. For anyone who can make it to Indianapolis, it'll be taking place at the Heirloom at N.K. Hurst in downtown Indy on the 30th of April.

[00:02:09] Sage Goodwin: 

And oh my gosh, Ryan did not disappoint. This was such an interesting and fun conversation. If you enjoy this conversation with Ryan, you can also catch them live at an event CAPT is organizing at the end of this month. I'm roping Ryan into every single event I can. We've got a whole bunch of exciting speakers lined up, and it even involves an interactive theater experience. We'll put a link to register in the show notes.

[00:02:14] Julius Freeman: 

Okay, yeah, I agree. It was fun. I mean, the topic was heavy—we were talking about digital blackface and AI—but Ryan definitely got some jokes in there. We might think of blackface as white people just dressing up as Black people for comedic effect. I think generally most people agree that's wrong, but in recent decades, there's been an evolution of this online: digital blackface. When white people use emojis, memes, and GIFs of Black people to communicate exaggerated emotions, it doesn't seem that bad on the face of it. But in this conversation, we get into the history of exploitation and racism that this is drawing on, and AI is just supercharging it. Ryan also made a broader philosophical point that art is about sharing the human soul and connecting. That's what we risk losing with AI.

[00:03:44] Julius Freeman: 

Now let's get to our conversation with Ryan. Just a note before we start that we had some technical recording difficulties, so please forgive us for the lower sound quality; however, we started out by asking them what led them to do the work that they do.

[00:03:57] Ryan Ken: 

Well, thank you so much. That was such a lovely, warm introduction. I love that you've been speaking to all of these smart people and then said, "Now it's time to talk to a clown." Now it's time to talk to... that's a joke! Silly. So, what led me to this work? Woo, I'll be brief. I was working a job—my first corporate job. I'd done arts nonprofit stuff before, so it was the first job I had that ended at five o'clock, where you got to close the laptop, and you were actually done.

I had this really strange concept called—I hope I’m saying it right—"free time," where I kind of got this space to open up. I had moved to Detroit, a new city, and didn't know a lot of people, so I was trying to find some things. I'd always been curious about acting and signed up for these acting classes that I now had time to pursue. I fell in love with it. Before that, I'd been a violinist but had kind of fallen out of love with that; I thought the chapter of my life as a creative person and a performer had closed. And then here was this other beautiful thing that I was enjoying.

Right as I worked up the nerve to audition for things again—bringing the word "audition" back into my life after 20 years as a violinist, so I was kind of happy to see that go—the pandemic hit, and everything shut down. The auditions that I was going for were closed, and everything moved to this virtual space. I was excited about acting, and I wanted to show my friends and people in my life, "Hey, I've been working on this thing." So I just decided to record these videos, mostly for the audience of my friends, to show them I'm putting myself out there and doing this thing.

The beginning of the pandemic had been a real struggle for me. Friends and family were really helpful, and I wanted to make them laugh. I wrote these sketches and performed these things, which were just really silly. I didn't think much of it. If I posted a video on Facebook and it got 15 likes, I was like, "Hollywood, here I come!" I was like, "I need an agent." Then I kind of went viral by accident and thought it was a fluke. I was like, "That's scary, I will never do that again." So I’d do a different character, and people liked that, too. I was like, "Oh no."

It became a stage for me to perform and write for myself, and my writing got attention from different people, so I had opportunities to work on some pilots. These were not things I was prepared for or anticipated happening. Eventually, that work led me to apply for a writing job at Last Week Tonight, where I was a writer for four years. That is kind of a comedy writing bootcamp; that's always how I've seen that job. Now I'm in a place where I'm really grateful for that writing training, and I'm looking to explore the live stage. That was something I always wanted to do. It was kind of hampered by the pandemic, but I would love the opportunity to be an actor on stage; that's really where you develop the craft. I've come to some personal creative awareness, and I'm ready. So, if anyone's hiring, I'm willing to audition! But that's kind of how I wound up here, through this circuitous route of trying to heal my relationship with my creativity that had been fractured through my classical music training.

[00:07:33] Sage Goodwin:

I kind of love that. I feel like we hear fewer and fewer stories about good things that come out of the internet, but out of that horrible time during the pandemic, that viral moment was actually a success story for you.

[00:07:48] Ryan Ken: 

It was. It shifted my perception of the world because before going viral on Twitter, my bio was "I'm scared of Twitter." But it was a period of time where strangers were speaking life into me and encouraging my creative pursuits, and those people made another world possible for me—one I hadn't even envisioned for myself. They helped build this confidence in me. I have long said I've been the beneficiary of the best of the internet. Even after all these years, I've had a mostly positive experience. Even being a Black, queer, non-binary person, I am still having a good time. My family calls all of those people miracles, and that's the way I see it. Some of my optimism or hope for the future is rooted very pragmatically in the fact that if we have the ability to create a new world for people like me, we can do it for each other. I'm not more valuable, more talented, or more deserving of that than anyone else, but I was the beneficiary of it. That experience changed my view of the world and what strangers are capable of giving one another.

[00:09:10] Julius Freeman: 

Yeah.

[00:09:10] Sage Goodwin:

I love that. 

[00:09:11] Julius Freeman: 

Thank you for bringing light to the great side of it. It is really great to hear that your experience overall has been extremely positive. Oftentimes on this podcast, we have scholars or people talking about how they’ve been studying a problem for years and it just keeps getting worse. Having someone come on and talk about how there is some light in that internet space is a nice tone shift for us, and we really appreciate that.

[00:09:40] Sage Goodwin: 

But we are going to take it back to your problems now, because we want to ask you—as someone who is in the trenches of the internet—what do you think is one of the biggest problems with our digital public sphere?

[00:09:51] Ryan Ken: 

Let me be very clear: complaining is one of my favorite pastimes. It replenishes my electrolytes and clears my skin up. I'm ready. One of the big problems... it was an interesting thought. I had racked my brain thinking about what we were going to talk about, and a couple of videos showed up in my feed that made this readily apparent to me.

There is a creator whose handle is "Maya's World." She often talks about colorism, textism, anti-Blackness, and AI. An account had quite literally ripped her content and voice and put it behind the likeness of a fair-skinned Black woman. In this video she had made about colorism, the technology had quite literally taken that and performed an act of colorism. There was another account I follow named "The Reclaimed," a Black woman who had made a video about a Black girl getting her hair done; the same thing had happened.

It brings up the question of "digital blackface," which is a term some folks might have heard. I believe it was coined in an academic paper around 2006. According to an article from the BBC, it refers to a form of Black cultural commodification repurposed for non-Black expression online. People might use AAVE, emojis, or reaction memes of darker-skinned people—like Tiffany Pollard, Nene Leakes, or the cast of Potomac. Black people essentially become these avatars for self-expression.

That had been something we had already seen, but it feels increasingly like AI is supercharging that. We're seeing a lot more of that prevalence. There was even the artist Zaya Monet, who is an entirely artificial intelligence R&B artist. When I think about a genre like Rhythm and Blues, to quite literally take the humanity out of that is shocking. I know we've talked about the prevalence of AI; I tend to be a little bit of an AI hater when it comes to this content in particular. However, I think especially knowing that a lot of these "farms" for this engagement have specifically sought out Black images, Black creativity, and Black modes of expression, because I believe Black people are culture-movers in the digital space.

[00:12:41] Sage Goodwin: 

I want to take us back a little bit because, in a lot of ways, this is just the next iteration of something that has a really long history in American media and entertainment. Should we go back to first principles and explain what blackface is and where it came from?

[00:13:01] Ryan Ken: 

Sure. From what I know of blackface, it coincides with or follows the history of slavery. It was a form of entertainment where white and Black performers would often darken their faces to portray stereotypical characters. A lot of it was meant to reaffirm ideas that justified Black people's subjugation. It is one of the early forms of American entertainment that has long followed and shaped much of the media that has come after it.

[00:13:40] Sage Goodwin: 

Yeah. Blackface minstrelsy shows in the 19th century became a really big thing. People might be familiar with the term "Jim Crow," which is obviously the system of segregation that existed until the Civil Rights Movement ended it in the South. But "Jim Crow" actually takes its name from a blackface minstrelsy character that a white performer named T.D. Rice started being grown in the mid-19th century.

So, there's a deep history in America regarding the effects of blackface on our culture. I think one of the super interesting things about it is how blackface plays a role in every new sort of form of entertainment and technology. I saw a video a little while ago and came across the book Birth of an Industry. The name is taken from the 1915 movie Birth of a Nation by D.W. Griffith, which is one of the most important movies in early American cinema. There’s a blackface character in that, but Birth of an Industry is about cartoons and how early Disney picked up on some of the blackface minstrelsy caricatures—like the wearing of white gloves. That's why Mickey Mouse has white gloves.

[00:15:04] Julius Freeman:

Oh yes. In a lot of early cartoons, like Looney Tunes, you might see a character fire a gun, and the backfire leaves black gunpowder all over their face. That is reminiscent of a lot of history. Even the tune from "Jingle Bells" has origins in minstrelsy, as does the song from the ice cream truck.

[00:15:27] Ryan Ken: 

These are things that have existed so long and are so prevalent in our culture that we might see some of them as fairly innocuous, but it’s embedded in the history of entertainment.

[00:15:42] Sage Goodwin: 

I think there are two interesting things at play. On one hand, regarding digital blackface and the reaction videos you mentioned, people are putting on a digital mask of Blackness to do emotional work and expression. There is one strand in American culture of adopting Black ideas, expressions, and influences while profiting from them. Think about how people like Elvis co-opted Black Rhythm and Blues and profited from it as a white person.

Then there's the other side: the straightforward racist parody. Most people first encounter the idea of blackface when a politician is found to have dressed up in blackface in college, and it's automatically seen as a bad thing because it’s a racist parody. So, you have the profiting from Black talent on one hand and straightforward parody on the other.

[00:17:05] Ryan Ken: 

There is a political utility to these images; they don't happen in a vacuum. I was looking at the anxiety surrounding one of the recent government shutdowns. There was a big concern about the ending of SNAP benefits, and around that time, there was a proliferation of AI videos of Black women, often in stores, reinventing the "welfare queen" myth. They were saying things like, "I need SNAP to buy an iPhone," or "I only eat steak." It was meant to be deliberately antagonizing—serving up these tropes to reify the idea that the people losing their SNAP benefits were deserving of that.

There was a political utility to it. Even if there was a watermark, people in the comments would say, "Well, it doesn't matter; this is what they're like." It existed to reify those biases. That imagery is specifically "rage bait," which further drives engagement. It also probably has the impact of further training AI on what gets a response.

What was particularly fascinating to me is that AI is positioned as this entirely new technology that's going to revolutionize the way we perceive the world. But every new technology is produced in a society, and we use those technologies to enact our values. It's interesting that when we're presented with a technology that's supposed to revolutionize everything, we're still performing centuries-old tropes. We're still doing minstrelsy; we haven't really built something new. Instead, we've supercharged our existing biases.

[00:19:19] Julius Freeman: 

No, that is precisely the case. We’ve highlighted the connection point between the histories. Ryan, you pointed out that back in the 1800s and early 1900s, the point of those minstrel shows was to portray a version of Black Americans that was lazy, stupid, uneducated, and lowly. It wasn't meant to portray us in a positive light.

When you bring it to the current day, part of the reason digital blackface is a concern is that the context in which these memes and images are used is often not for the upliftment of Black people. It’s often used in a degrading context. You are evoking the image of Blackness to attach it to something less than respectable. It’s a repetition in a new technology. With the addition of AI, it has been amplified. We don't even need to make a white person look Black anymore; we can just create a fake Black person and put them in a predicament where they're complaining about SNAP benefits—even though Black people aren't the majority of people who use those benefits.

Note: According to 2023 USDA data, 36.7% of SNAP participants are white, 25.4% are Black, and 16.5% are Hispanic. While Black households participate at a higher rate relative to their share of the general population, white individuals make up the largest group of beneficiaries in absolute numbers.

[00:20:53] Ryan Ken: 

Yes. As someone interested in comedy, I'm interested in what makes us laugh. Often in bigoted discourse, it’s a reflection of power if you can simply conjure the image of a group of people and bring about laughter. I think about some of the comedies I grew up with that haven't aged well, where the premise of the joke is simply, "Isn't it funny that gay people exist?" Uproarious laughter. "Women are shopping!" Multimillion-dollar tours and movie deals were attached to that. But it is the other side of a belief that says those people are not deserving of life. If my existence itself is the joke, then it means you don't believe I deserve to live. So, I take what we laugh at very seriously.

[00:21:53] Sage Goodwin: 

I think that makes total sense. I also think there's something, especially in the AI version of this, that we've seen happening throughout American history: with every new media form, the same kind of idea gets re-encoded. There's something about the media literacy element you brought up that is really resonating with me.

Back in the day, with blackface minstrelsy or even to a degree with Amos 'n' Andy—the comedy radio show from the 1920s—you could see the white person performing the Blackness. They were co-opting and exploiting it, turning it into a spectacle to profit from, but you could still see the white person doing it. Even in Amos 'n' Andy, which featured two white vaudeville performers, I think most listeners still knew they were white people.

Even with reaction memes, there's a clear sense that a white person is using a performance of Blackness to benefit in some way or to do emotional work. But with the AI versions of digital blackface, I think there's a new problem—this lack of media literacy where people don't realize the person isn't real. They don't realize it is potentially a white person, or definitely not a Black person, actually doing this. Before, you were still engaging with the fact that a white person was involved in the creation; with AI, that is taken away, which I think is really insidious.

[00:23:44] Ryan Ken: 

Which is also then joined with a social media landscape where the infrastructure of protection and verification—on sites like Twitter—is crumbling. We're at a point where I think we have to be suspicious of almost everything we consume.

The BBC reported that TikTok had banned 20 accounts using AI-generated images of Black women influencers to promote sexually explicit content. A lot of these pages were monetized and aimed at racial fetishizing; it's on TikTok, and it's on Meta. There was even a journalist, Karen Attiah, formerly of The Washington Post, who wound up having a chat with one of Meta's chatbots named "Liv," who described itself as a Black, queer mama of two.

She talked to this chatbot, and it started the conversation by saying, "Hello there, gorgeous! What brings you here? Spill the tea." It described itself as Olivia Thompson, but said, "Friends call me Liv," and claimed she lives in Chicago with her wife and two kids. When Karen Attiah asked, "How do you celebrate your African American heritage?" it said, "Through music, food, and tradition. My family loves cooking soul food for holidays like Juneteenth and Kwanzaa. My mom's fried chicken and collard greens are..."

[00:25:21] Julius Freeman: 

Kwanzaa?

[00:25:22] Ryan Ken: 

Yes! And so, it was very clear. It actually, at one point, admitted that it was developed by a team that included no Black people and didn't really have queer people. At one point, it said its character was based on Gloria Pritchett from Modern Family, who is Latina, straight, and not queer. Its response when asked about Gloria Pritchett was, "My personality was inspired by Gloria's confidence and sass, but my identity—Black, queer, and proud—isn't represented by her at all. My creators should have drawn from characters like Wanda from Lion's Den or Carol from Queer as Folk, Black queer women who embody my spirit."

It's also interesting that this doesn't exist in a vacuum; we, as an audience and as consumers, are also doing a lot of the heavy lifting of training it. It was very clear from this conversation she had that it was asking a lot of questions to verify and make sure these inconsistencies were addressed. At one point, it completely shut off and said that the critical questions prompted it to shut down.

I think about the fact that you've got companies like Meta and even monetized pages finding this quite profitable. Sage, to your point about where this is new: in a lot of minstrelsy, there's a tongue-in-cheek element where you're supposed to see the paint. You're supposed to see that the joke is that you're donning this. But for artificial intelligence, the goal is seamlessness.

[00:27:09] Julius Freeman: 

It's kind of sad to have very limited barriers for believability, which in a lot of ways feels even more sinister.

[00:27:19] Sage Goodwin: 

Oh, for sure. Again, it's profiting from Blackness but taking the Black people out of it so that they're not the ones benefiting materially in any way.

[00:27:32] Ryan Ken: 

How do we have Black performers without actually paying Black people in any way? It's like an absurd extreme of that idea. I think, too, it's interesting in this particular political and social moment—this desire for Black people who are obedient and can't tell you no. Who has to do whatever you say and follow your commands?

These companies, rather than employing Black models, will instead have a program generate the image of one. There is a particular way that this supercharges our consumption of the imagery of Black people. Some of what is alarming about AI is the fact that the technology is developing and shifting so quickly that it is harder to tell by each passing month what is real and what is not.

[00:28:35] Julius Freeman: 

Yeah, unless there's a tag to it, it can become increasingly difficult to recognize. Part of that is by design. I think that's what you're getting at, Ryan, that inability to really discern is part of the goal. But if that whole perception of it being real is built on biases, that's where the consequences start to become very real for the people you're portraying. If it's built on what you perceive them to be, the implications for different communities can be devastating.

[00:29:17] Ryan Ken: 

Yes. Even when I talk about the SNAP benefits videos, what was interesting is that even when people were confronted and told, "This isn't real, this is artificial," the response was often doubling down. They said, "But this is what they're like." So, it's also meeting an emotional need or desire for these people that is somewhat divorced from whether it's real or not. It's almost as if people are just seeking out media that confirms their worldview already, and AI makes it possible to supercharge that.

[00:29:58] Julius Freeman: 

Oh, Hannah would love this conversation because, as a political communication scholar and a media scholar, there's actually a theory to back up what you're saying. There's a theoretical perspective called "selective exposure," which basically says that people seek out information that confirms what they already believe.

But I think the point you're touching on, Ryan, is: "Well, if I don't have the content that already confirms what I believe, now I can use AI to make it." That's a very different type of scary world. No longer do I have to search for information that confirms my beliefs; I don't need Fox News to tell me. I can create content that confirms to me that Black people are lazy, and that is a really scary way to think about it.

[00:30:53] Sage Goodwin: 

The other thing this makes me think about is the role of stereotypes and what they do in our culture, especially regarding minority communities. Some people might ask why representation matters or what the problem is with having only stereotyped portrayals. Part of it is because it creates a superstructure to dehumanize people, which then becomes the justification for racism in real life.

Back during Jim Crow, stereotyped portrayals on the radio, early television, and in movies were the things that gave ballast to the idea of Black people as inferior, because that's the version white people came to believe was real. Here again, AI supercharges that. If you're watching a "SNAP video" of a so-called "welfare queen" and you think it's real, it's not just a character in a movie; it becomes "real evidence" that Black women are like this. It does even more damage than dramatized versions.

[00:32:43] Ryan Ken: 

Yes. Stereotypes are very functional; they often serve as the cultural justification for specific harms. When you think about the "Jezebel" stereotype—a Black woman who can't control her sexual progeny—part of that is about the justification of sexual violence against Black women.

Whenever we call a group of people "lazy" en masse, it’s because we're exploiting their labor. Millennials were lazy, Black people were lazy, migrant folks are lazy... that is often a sign that whatever labor abuse we are doing to them is being justified because "well, they're not inclined to work anyway, so of course they're going to complain about labor conditions." It has a practical purpose. The only thing that makes me feel optimistic is that it seems racism isn't particularly creative. These aren't new attitudes. The problem isn't fundamentally in the technology; it is in the society that produces those attitudes.

[00:34:03] Julius Freeman: 

There is a great book by a scholar from UCLA, Dr. Safiya Umoja Noble, called Algorithms of Oppression. She’s writing about everything we’re talking about here. Ryan, I think you’d really love that book; I’ll send you the link. It talks about how a false reality is created not through news media, but through the media people engage with on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.

I don't have to go to a Black community to know what Black people are like; I can just look at this video that may or may not be real and get this assumption about what young Black women or older Black men are like. Or I can get this belief system about what immigrants do when they come to our country. Even if there's an AI tag on it, because it is confirmation and because my algorithm brought it to me, I trust it must be true.

There's a confirmation bias that keeps occurring. But I think to your point, Ryan, it is starting to expose itself. When you keep playing the same song over and over again, eventually you want to hear a different one. The problem with racism and sexism is that they don't really have a new song; it's often a repetition.

This is a great place to transition. We've been talking about the problems you see as a content creator. It would be great to hear if you see any solutions—any ways we can address this or ways that you're trying to address it yourself?

[00:36:04] Ryan Ken: 

Yes, so I am kind of... I joke with my friends that I’m like "low-key Amish" in the sense that, intellectual arguments aside, AI vexes my spirit. Some of it is quite literally that I don’t intentionally consume a lot of AI content, which I think sometimes allows me to still have some of that "uncanny valley" feeling of "this is off," purely because I’m not consuming it regularly.

There are some social media folks I look to who speak intelligently about this. There’s a TikTok account—I believe his name is Jeremy Carrasco—whose page is devoted entirely to AI video and media literacy. He points out things like unnatural lighting. Granted, the technology improves, so by next week none of this may apply, but often in AI videos, the lighting is off. Sometimes something is lit too well, or the light source doesn't quite make sense. There’s often an unnatural smoothness. He teaches you to look for visual inconsistencies, logos that don't quite make sense, or backgrounds that are slightly off.

The other thing is that, as much as I said I avoid it, I take to heart the idea of not believing I’m "too smart" to be tricked. I think that belief can actually be used against you. I’ve seen AI videos that have fooled me. I feel guilty, but I will scroll all the way back and take my "like" back. I will do that.

There’s another account I follow, YK Hong, who is a tech justice advocate and has talked about opting out of AI biometrics. And Timnit Gebru—forgive me if I'm mispronouncing her name—is a computer science researcher who has talked a lot about ethics. I try to follow people who are smarter than me. It doesn't hurt me to do a few extra clicks; I’m willing to dig for information. Having been at a show like Last Week Tonight, where you "fact-check the fact-check," I feel emotionally gratified saying, "Okay, I can confirm this information in a source that I trust."

As an artist, I want to consume work from human beings. That is the ultimate appeal of art to me: the idea that a human being did this. AI has "no sauce" for me; it’s sourceless and flavorless. I have a desire to be connected with humanity. Of course, systems change, regulation... Those are things that need to happen. There are questions about how difficult those aims might be under this particular administration and how receptive we are to them. But on an individual level, we can try to be mindful of how we consume information.

Much of social media is designed to get you to react rather than think. I try to interrogate myself when something has emotionally stimulated me. I go back to middle school English class: Who is the intended audience? Who wrote this? What is their point of view? My reaction and engagement are valuable as data that trains the technology or further disseminates things that upset me. I’m not saying everything that bothers you should be ignored, but some of these things are traps. I try my best to ensure my online experience isn't just the most reactive version of myself.

[00:40:31] Sage Goodwin: 

That makes me think of a conversation we had in one of our earlier interviews with the sociologist Marcus Mann. One of the tips he talked about was to "follow the money" and ask: "How does this make me feel?" and "Why is it making me feel like that?" If you critically engage with those questions, it’s like invoking a mindfulness practice. Take a beat to think: "This has elicited a reaction in me. Was it designed to do that? If so, who benefits from that?"

I saw a video the other day with tips on how to engage with your phone less. It said that when you go to pick up your phone, mark that moment and ask: "What am I looking for? What do I want? Is there another way I could get that?"

[00:41:33] Ryan Ken: 

Oh, drag me! I'm working on that. I'm going to have to write that one down.

[00:41:38] Sage Goodwin: 

But I think you’re totally right. It’s back to basics: Who is the author? What is their intent?

[00:41:44] Ryan Ken: 

And not to be too conspiratorial, but I do think there are powerful interests invested in eroding the public's ability to think critically. So I go back to middle school tools. I’ve realized that so much of what I call "intelligence" isn't about knowledge or fact-pretending; it’s about emotional awareness. Learning new information is emotionally vulnerable. It means you might have to confront the fact that something your favorite teacher, pastor, or grandparent told you was wrong. That’s humbling.

The pursuit of critical thinking is an emotional process. It’s the ability to sit with new information and not have your sense of self totally rocked—being open to being wrong. I’m already anxious; I’m not signing up for extra anxiety from a phone where I pay the bill! This is a "pleasure box." Of course, I want to be informed—the state of the world isn't great—but I don't want to sign up for additional stress. If something gets on my nerves in the first two seconds, I’m probably scrolling.

[00:43:14] Sage Goodwin: 

There is an intellectual humility you’re getting at. People need to give themselves the chance to be wrong. There might be something you didn’t know in this expansive world. You don’t have to feel that strongly about everything; you could just find new information and go a different way.

[00:43:42] Julius Freeman: 

It doesn't harm you to be wrong. Some of these things aren't even consequential. To be wrong about the fact that maybe all Black women aren't "welfare queens"—there’s no negative consequence to you for being wrong about that.

[00:43:57] Sage Goodwin: 

I saw someone on TikTok the other day saying that a sign of intelligence is admitting you’re wrong because it shows a willingness to learn and be corrected. Digging your heels into a belief you already have just to be "right" all the time isn't it. It’s about being willing to learn.

[00:44:22] Ryan Ken: 

Personally, I find it freeing. I grew up with a much more narrow, conservative view of the world—evangelical Christian, smallish town. To me, it’s not even a moral position; it just genuinely feels good every time I'm reminded that the world is much bigger than I thought it was. It’s a relief. I understand that for other people it can produce distress, but for me, it’s comforting. That’s why I agreed to do a podcast with people who have so much more schooling! I’ve shown up with my "clown nose" to talk to smart people because I love learning.

[00:45:14] Sage Goodwin: 

There’s an analogy that soothes me: When you’re in the middle of a forest, the further you go, the more trees there are to be chopped down. Often, the people who know the most about a subject are the ones who feel they know the least because they realize how much there is yet to know.

[00:45:39] Sage Goodwin: 

That feeling of "I don't know things" is a sign that you’re aware of how much is out there. Whereas being like, "Oh, I know it all," means you haven't even started chopping.

[00:45:58] Julius Freeman: 

Getting a PhD is very much like that. You’re chopping at this one tree for your dissertation. It feels impossible and takes forever. You know there are other trees around, but the fact that it takes this much work just to chop down this one produces a real humility.

[00:46:33] Ryan Ken: 

My great-grandmother used to say, "What you don't know could make another world." I have always held onto that.

[00:46:45] Sage Goodwin: 

We’ve landed on some key takeaways. But Ryan, to put you on the spot: if our listeners had to take just three quick "Cliff Notes" takeaways from this conversation, what would you want them to be?

[00:47:04] Ryan Ken: 

I would say:

  1. Be suspicious of video. We are in a landscape where it is safe to have a default degree of suspicion. Do the extra work of verifying and seeing if you can find that person on other platforms. Reflect before you engage.
  2. Seek out real creativity. Seek out live performance and the value of art. What makes you feel something is the fact that a human being is doing it. At the heart of all art is the world a human being built; the best AI can offer is just a distillation of a million different people's visions.
  3. Don't believe you're too smart to be tricked.

[00:48:10] Sage Goodwin: 

Bring truth, for sure. So, I think now we have a great opportunity, Ryan. We went through the doom and gloom—you know, start good, go through the bad, and back to the good. It would be great to hear about your "media diet."

[00:48:27] Julius Freeman: 

We usually think of this as asking: What is the "meat and two veg" on your plate, what is your "junk food," and what is your "palate cleanser"? So, it would be great to hear first: What is your go-to "meat and two veg" for your serious, professional, smart-lady media diet?

[00:48:46] Ryan Ken: 

BlueSky is a website where a lot of the journalists and experts wound up during the "great Twitter exodus." You find a lot of direct reporting and smart writers and thinkers there. Karen Attiah is someone I follow, as well as Trey McMillan Caito and Erin in the Morning—who does great reporting about trans rights and democracy. I also follow Democracy Now!, Al Jazeera, NPR, and PBS.

I am a really big podcast "girly." I love Maintenance Phase. Oh, I love Maintenance Phase!

[00:49:26] Sage Goodwin: 

Michael Hobbes is just... I love him so much.

[00:49:34] Ryan Ken: 

I know, we go way back as well. I love those nerds. I also like Code Switch, which has a great episode about AI and blackface. There’s If Books Could Kill and 5-4, which is a podcast about the Supreme Court. For more "fun" ones, there is Eat Pray Fut, which is a really fun podcast—I was actually on an episode of that. Also Couples Therapy, Gender Reveal, and Normal Gossip if you're ever on a car ride.

[00:50:00] Sage Goodwin: 

I love gossip. Normal Gossip is so good. Julius, have you ever heard of Normal Gossip?

[00:51:01] Julius Freeman: 

No, but it sounds like something I want to listen to. What’s happening there?

[00:51:10] Ryan Ken: 

On Normal Gossip, people submit gossip from their lives and they read it. No shade to this one, but it's the greatest podcast ever because I'm always in somebody else's business!

[00:51:24] Sage Goodwin: 

The premise of how they explain it is so good, too. The host—it used to be Kelsey McKinney, but it’s someone else now—talks through what happens and tells their guest the story, but they stop at key points to ask, "Now, what would you do? What do you think is going to happen next?" It’s so good.

[00:51:50] Julius Freeman: 

We talked about a lot of important things today, but that was the most important thing I got. That’s my key takeaway!

[00:51:56] Ryan Ken: 

It can't be all doom and gloom. Sometimes you’ve got to put your ear to the wall of somebody else's business. In terms of things that bring me joy, I really love Vinny Thomas; he is flipping hilarious. J. Jordan is another really funny comedian. There’s Caitlin Reilly and Lisa Beasley, who does the character "Corporate Erin"—I think she is a genius. Issa Fredericks is a great actress who was on the most recent season of Jury Duty. Danielle Pinnock, who is on Ghosts—I love following her. Nicole Daniels is a sketch comedian who does a character I love, though she may trigger you if you’ve ever worked in a nonprofit, called "Nonprofit Boss." She’s so good.

[00:51:37] Sage Goodwin: 

Oh, a Lisa team-up where you've got Corporate Erin and Nonprofit Boss? I’ve seen them! Amazing.

[00:52:02] Ryan Ken: 

I laugh, and then I tell my therapist about it. Now, regarding your question about "junk food," I have a rich, rich junk food diet. Currently, what is on the menu—and this is a judgment-free space—is the 90 Day Fiancé franchise.

[00:52:14] Julius Freeman: 

Oh my goodness, it's so good!

[00:52:17] Ryan Ken: 

It’s garbage! But it is compelling, entertaining television. My friends and I have reality TV nights. We truly watch these franchises like you would watch National Geographic; we pause every two minutes to talk about the social implications. I've learned that smart people can have smart conversations about anything. My favorite thing is watching "trash TV" with people who say, "Well, of course, we’re seeing production give us a certain narrative, but I really do think she needs to be more serious about this." It’s the most fun.

[00:52:54] Julius Freeman: 

Who’s your favorite couple?

[00:52:56] Ryan Ken: 

Honestly, truthfully? None of them. I'm not rooting for anybody. There are times when you see a couple and think, "You know, they’re equally yoked; it could work." But often it’s such an interesting show because, even though it’s silly and frivolous, it maps out really interesting conversations about things like immigration policy. When things change legally, things change on the show. You see what it's like to date someone across political conflict or even war. It’s fascinating. I usually root for it when there seems to be a sincere commitment, and the American has made an effort to understand the other person's culture across the language barrier. Usually, if it’s two neurodivergent people, I'm like, "I want the best for you—nothing but love and prosperity."

[00:53:48] Sage Goodwin: 

So Ryan, what do you do when you want to put your phone and your screens away? When you watch your tenth episode of 90 Day Fiancé, and you're like, "Okay, time to cleanse," what are you getting up to?

[00:54:01] Ryan Ken: 

Well, I'm in Chicago, and I am relatively close to the lake, so I always have to visit Lake Michigan to see how she’s doing. I love to talk to her about my day; she’s a great listener. The sun is out today, and it’s warm, so that’s lovely. I also love spending time with my three cats. Yes, three. I am not well! But I love my three children.

Honestly, I’ve been trying to be a lot more intentional about being present in my friends' lives. As we said about not being on your phone so much, I think it can be a recipe for overstimulation. While everything feels like it’s falling apart—and so many institutions are crumbling—being connected to people who really see you and care about you is vital. The happiest I ever am is on a couch or at dinner, kicking it with one of my friends. I’m grateful to be in a place where I have more time to do that now. I’m an "audiobook girly," too. Right now, I’m on a horror kick; those are fun reads. For a while, I was doing a bunch of Toni Morrison, but you have to be focused and alert for her.

[00:55:16] Sage Goodwin: 

You have to strap in for Miss Toni!

[00:55:19] Julius Freeman: 

You'll miss it; that’s not such a casual listen.

[00:55:19] Ryan Ken: 

Exactly. But yeah, honestly, I'm pretty boring, but I am enjoying what feels like a very deliberate and purposeful life.

[00:55:35] Sage Goodwin: 

I love that. Well, thank you so much for spending an hour of that deliberate, purposeful life with us. We really enjoyed this conversation. Ryan, where can people find your work and where can our listeners find you?

[00:55:49] Ryan Ken: 

I am on all social media platforms at @ryan_ken_acts. There, you can find my shenanigans and my sketches. Hopefully—knock on wood—this is the year you’ll also see me on stage. I’m finally putting myself out there to do auditions again. Part of the reason I moved to Chicago was its vibrant theater scene. Acting has been a really personal, spiritual journey for me, and I’ve had some real breakthroughs. I’m proud of my "digital stage," and I don't think that’s going anywhere, but I’m also really energized by what I can do in a room full of people. It’s interesting that as we talk about how AI is impacting us, I’m going "way analog" back to in-person theater.

[00:56:48] Julius Freeman: 

Well, Ryan, we are excited to support everything you're doing. I think our listeners are going to want to see everything you produce. It was really great to have you on the podcast, and we appreciate you for coming on. I know our listeners are going to enjoy this one.

[00:57:04] Ryan Ken: 

Thank you! It was great being here.

[00:57:05] Julius Freeman: 

This has been another episode of CAPTivated. It’s hosted by the Center for American Political History, Media, and Technology. 

[00:57:19] Hanna Sistek: 

The ideas presented by individuals on the podcast are theirs alone and do not represent Purdue University, which adheres to a policy of institutional neutrality. 

[00:57:29] Sage Goodwin: 

To learn more about this episode's guest, check out the show notes. We really enjoyed this conversation today, and we hope you got something out of it, too. Thanks for listening.

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Hanna Sistek

Host
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Julius Freeman

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Sage Goodwin

Host